It’s official: North Korea has nukes.

by alphamonkey on February 10, 2005 · 30 comments

in News,Stupid People

North Korea announced earlier today that it does indeed have nuclear weapons, and that they have no plans to disarm due to the ‘increasing threat of the United States’. 

Here’s a link to the entire statement from the Govt. of North Korea.Way to go, Bush supporters. Way to go. 

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  • fealty2dahriyah

    us and n. korea must have the 2 biggest assholes as leaders. if bush and his bullies would shut the fuck up for a minute and quit pointing fingers things could be better. not that anything good can come of this because NK isn’t going to back down. the whole point of obtaining nuclear weapons is to not let bullies push you around anymore, you can clear the earth of life.

    maybe W needs to talk to his dad and ronny about the cold war and nuclear dismantlement… instead of space lazers and missle defense systems.

  • noochienoochie

    I’m actually starting to root for N. Korea. If you know anything about their culture, then you know the Bush admin’s EXTREMELY ethnocentric (not to mention egotistical & unchristian) policies will never fly w/ them. It’s almost human nature for N. Korea to then pursue nukes. If Bush is so religious, so christian, where’s the sermon on the mound? Where’s open dialogue and inclusion? And what happened to love thy enemy?

  • The Good Reverend

    While I maintain that Bush is a terrible leader, this isn’t his doing, or the result of his actions.

    To say that Bush is at fault (I’m assuming you are assigning blame based on his missile defense initiative) is to assign logic and reason to Kim Jong Il.  You are assuming that Kim is thinking, “because the U.S. does x, I must do y.” He doesn’t think like this – he is not a sane man.

    He is starving his people through mismanagement of his country.  His only bargaining chip was to renege on his agreement with Clinton and scare the shit out of everyone with his nuclear capability in an attempt to get more foreign aid.

    Granted, the administration calling him “axis of evil” and “outpost of tyranny” isn’t helping.  But we would have had this situation regardless of U.S. leadership.  North Korea needs welfare, and the threat of nukes is all he’s got to bring to the table.

  • .alphamonkey.

    I’m putting blame on Bush because

    1) He focused on imaginary weapons in Iraq instead of known weapons in N. Korea

    2) He cancelled the bi-lateral talks that N. Korea (and the rest of the world) wanted from us

    3) He’s a complete dipshit.

  • The Good Reverend

    1.) They aren’t “known weapons” yet.  I believe we’ve proven he can make weapons-grade uranium, but haven’t verified anything beyond that.

    2.) I think multilateral talks is a better option in this situation than bilateral.  N.K. is not a “US problem”.  It’s a world problem, or at the very least a Sino-Russian problem.

    3.) No argument there.  His dipshitedness truly is complete.

  • .alphamonkey.

    Intelligence estimates state that he does indeed have nuclear weapon capability. That’s been known for nearly 5 years now.

    Bi-lateral talks are important because we have the most weight (militarily and financially) to throw around. I’m not advocating that we cease our multi-lateral talks (though Bush pretty much already has), just do bi-lateral at the same time. Jong is not the kind of ruler you want to pussy-foot around with.

  • The Good Reverend

    Are you sure you want to use “Intelligence estimates state that..” in your argument? wink They did such a smashing job with Iraq.

  • .alphamonkey.

    These estimates were pre-Bush.

  • noochienoochie

    Sure, GR, Bush isn’t entirely at fault–but only b/c the current situation in N. Korea IS a product of decades of misdirected U.S./western foreign policy. Containment has virtually been proven ineffective, yet the U.S. has continued to use it long after the Cold War, ie Iraq, Iran, Cuba; then Bush comes along and turns it up to eleven. Isolation from the world community certainly doesn’t make an insane leader any saner, but Bush’s direct aggression towards Kim Jong-Il pisses him off to boot.

  • fealty2dahriyah

    I don’t blame the entire situation on bush, but he has reopened the wound adn infected it. this is the same asshole who uses the rhetoric that only trustable societies man control power. power of course being nuclear devices. so all the big warmongers of the last half century are allowed to posses the most destructive devices. now I’m not supporting everyone having WMD’s, I don’t support anyone having them. but it sounds like the baby of the family telling the parents how to live right, when the baby is going out and partying all night. the bush admins problems all come back to dis/misinformation and their general rhetoric. for fucksake they sound like michael jackson on the stand w/ endless excuses and conspiracy theories. they come off as cocky, ignorant, rich, assholes. 

    I blame bush for not securing enriched uranium left in russia and the collapsing eastern block, and the scientists who worked onthe projects. it makes no sense to say we couldn’t afford to buy these people and things when we spents millions on a single plane or smart bomb adn we have a stockpiles of the crap.

    bush has done nothing to entice peace for us and our children. may his seeds spread VD to the next generation and kill them off before their prime.

  • noochienoochie

    I’m agreeing w/ monkey. Many of the reports are also from un-affiliated security organizations. The Int’l Institute for Strategic Studies has a nice dossier on N. Korea’s capabilities if you need to waste more time at work.

  • fealty2dahriyah

    I’ll support the idea of not pussyfooting around w/ kim. this is the same guy forcing men to cut their hair if it is longer than 2 inches.

    this guy is seriously derranged, but contain his ass. if he is this crazy, then you also don’t want to talk shit or push him. I know bush calls this diplomacy, but we call them bullies and bullies have a tendency to eventually get their asses kicked. or in this case detonated.

    much like iraq it’s not our business, unless we are looking to setup business.

    and since win hasn’t containment worked? i wouldn;’t say it worked great, but fuck a cold war is better than a bloody one. we should do what we do best, beat them in commercial way, make his people love our junk.

    plus, I tend to side w/ the fact that people need to fight for their own indepedence. america has proved it has little value to those who didn’t earn it for themselves.

  • noochienoochie

    fealty, when HAS containment worked?? vietnam still went communist, right after korea. fact is containment has only caused each rogue country’s citizens to suffer and for their leaders to further misunderstand the u.s.’ intentions. really though, you contradict yourself. yes, I’d agree w/ you that commercialism is where it’s at, but you can’t sell them goods if you’re closing them off and containing them. hwvr look at china. our relations have slowly improved as we’ve opened dialogue and traded more. they’re starting to understand where we’re coming from and vice versa. problem is, the u.s. took this course w/ china b/c there were buku bucks to be made, and only b/c there were buku bucks to be made. the same isn’t true w/ n. korea.

  • The Good Reverend

    I think there has arisen confusion as to who is arguing what points.

    I am NOT for mere containment, as I think this will encourage Kim to just push the envelope more.  He should be fully engaged.  Whereas I have no problem with bilateral talks between NK and any other country, I think multilateral will yield better results.  All countries in the region have a stake in this, and any actions taken against N.K. will have greater legitimacy if done by all affected countries in unison.

    I also took issue with his “known weaponry”.  I have seen several rebuttals basically saying the same thing – “to the best of our knowledge, he has xyz”.  That is not “known”.  When our satellites pick up a mushroom cloud in the North Korean hinterland, then I will concede that it is “known”.  Intelligence of multiple nations had suspected wmd’s in Iraq for the last 10 years, and we know what became of that.

    The final point I was arguing was Bush’s culpability.  I maintain that the lip service his administration has been paying is simply atrocious, but outside of that he’s not at fault.  Kim was going to take this path regardless of US leadership.

  • .alphamonkey.

    Only the US and Britain claimed that Iraq still had WMD programs in place. (And Britain got their pre-war intel from the Bush administration.)

    There have been waaaaay too many suspicious things going on in the Yanggang Provice, where NK’s uranium enrichment program is most likely taking place.

    Like this little doozy, for instance. You’ll note that not a single US Official would go on record as stating it was definately not a nuclear cloud.

  • The Good Reverend

    Inspections by UNSCOM were in full operation from the conclusion of Gulf War I all the way up to December of 1998, when the inspectors were kicked out.  This leads me to believe that more than just the US and Britain suspected wmds.  Kicking out UN inspectors is a suspicious action in my opinion.

    As for the cloud, I do remember that.  Which is why it is my definite belief that NK might have nuclear weapons. wink

  • .alphamonkey.

    Bear in mind, the UNSCOM inspections were there to not only deter Saddam from starting up his weapon programs again, but to also account for the materials that Saddam had claimed to have.

  • The Good Reverend

    This is a partial transcript from the G-8 Summit of 1996:

    US guy:  I am very leery of Saddam’s wmds.  What do you all think?

    French guy:  Oh oui oui!  We think he is definitely up to something!  What say you, Germany?

    German guy:  Ja!  I asked Saddam the other day, “do you have wmds?” He got really fidgety in his seat and his eyes started darting around.  I definitely suspect that he’s packin’.

    Japanese guy:  I’m SURE he has them.  I think we should act like we’re in diplomaticn talks with him, then do a surprise bombing!

    Everyone {in resignation}:  That’s our Japan! {laugh track}

    So, I definitely believe that many countries suspected Saddam.  Bear in mind, this is not the

    known transcript, but rather Intelligence’s best estimates.  cheese

  • japhy

    i can’t blame bush for this, i mean, there are already sooooo freakin many things that we can blame him for, that this would be just the cherry on top of a pie of ****…

    if you’ve read some articles about the form of government they have in NK, the “good conduct for a good citizen” laws they have (an example is the lenght of the hair for male), the status of his dead father, and all the surreal things that are coming from that place, my opinion is that Kim would of produce a nuke anyway, or something even dumber, just to say “nananana i can do what the hell i want nananana”…

    the guy is nuts like his father (more or less)

    obviously that the foreign policy of the current administration (and not just in US) is totaly disgraceful…

  • Cananopie

    It’s not a “Bush’s fault” or “Not Bush’s fault” situation we have here. We ALL know whose at fault, A certain tiny man with a female first name. The reason why there are Nuclear Weapons in North Korea is because of their leader. Obvious. Bush did not do it.

    HOWEVER we can blame Bush for instigating Kim to become focused on Nuclear Weapons, and start being a badass about it. BECAUSE of Iraq not only does Kim fear that his power in his own country is threatened but he understands that Americas military is NOT as strong as originally played out to be BEFORE Iraq.

    To the world, despite what right wing propaganda tells you otherwise, America’s attack on Iraq was seen as a massive failure and only proved America’s lack of efficiency militarily. It’s the same reason why Iran is totally saying “Hey, we got nukes and we don’t give a shit what you say.” America is seen much more weaker now BECAUSE of Bush and his irrational attack on Iraq.

    That attack and massive failure on and in Iraq has proven to the world we are not the perfect, extremely strong country we were seen as previously. China is also testing the waters on the United States. None of this would’ve happened if we would’ve cooperated with the UN and Europe. We are more alone than ever and other countries understand that, especially the ones that hate us. So yea- Bush instigated this with his attack on Iraq. The fact that we knew if there was nuclear programs in Iran or North Korea before Iraq doesn’t matter. We should work with the countries that we agreed to work with in the UN because we are not the only ones that matter.

  • The Good Reverend

    I think any leader of a “rogue state” is extremely short-sighted if they don’t fear the US military.  Let’s be specific in what we failed at: nation-building.  We are having a hell of a time leaving the post-Saddam Iraq a stable country.  However, we turned it into a “post-Saddam” Iraq in about 2 weeks.  Not too shabby.  If we were to launch an offensive into North Korea or Iran tomorrow, we would end up with the same quagmire we have in Iraq now, but I have no doubts that their leaders would be deposed by Easter.

  • Shadow Stalker

    Come on.  We’ve taken Iraq from Napoleon to Jacobin.  Whether or not this is a failed revolution remains to be seen, but our forces are being publicly routed by guerillas.  Yes, we dispatched the Royal Guard easily, but in the process we tipped our hand.  The entire war was broadcast on CNN; everyone knows what we’ve got now.  Not only that, but now everyone knows where we’re vulnerable.  Add to that our over-deployment, and we’re primed for something bad.

  • The Good Reverend

    Over-deployment I definitely agree with – I wasn’t suggesting that we could win NK, Iran, and Iraq all at the same time.  I’m just saying that if we were to focus on just one, we could depose said leader.

    The administration grossly underestimated the resistance, but I’m not sure I’d go quite as far as to say we’re being “routed”.  I think it seems that way perhaps because the US citizenry doesn’t like to see any casualties.  So when we sustain small amounts on a continual basis, it seems bad.

    Don’t get me wrong – I completely oppose this war.  I just don’t exactly see the guerillas as kicking our asses right now.

  • Cananopie

    The point is though, Oh Good Reverend, is that we ARE still in Iraq. And that North Korea understands that military deployment to their country will be much harder now that we’re Iraq’s babysitter. And they understand that Iran is also getting tough with the US and so is China for this very same reason- the US is spreading too thin. And they’re all just sticking their necks out waiting to see which one we attack first so they can become even stronger because we’ll have 2 big messes on our hands instead of just one.

    Yea- if we wanted to be severely ruthless and just napalm these countries acre after acre until no soul is left in any and say “TOLD YOU SO MOTHERF*CKERS, DONT MESS WITH THE BEST!” yea- we’d have no problem. The problem is Bush doesn’t have that power quite yet, though he’s working day and night for it. But the more we get all up in other countries business is the more spread thin we’ll become. This is just what NK, Iran, and China are waiting for. Whose next? Because like a crack addict- Bush can’t stop.

  • Shadow Stalker

    You mean three messes.  Don’t forget Afghanistan.

  • Shadow Stalker

    I meant to say nearly routed.

    You’d agree that toppling a leader isn’t necessarily the best course of action, even if he’s a bad guy, right?

  • The Good Reverend

    Completely agree.

  • Algernon

    I can’t believe I read the whole comment thread.  I must be nuts

  • .alphamonkey.

    Well, only partially nuts.  Most of it is interesting and relevant.

  • The Good Reverend

    And the rest is irrelevant, childish, and gay.  Intelligent and juvenile – the Transbuddha promise!

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